Anchoring InCopy linked content in ID

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    • #71834
      Allan Shearer
      Participant

      Hi Everyone

      I’m converting an older Ventura Publisher project to InDesign and one of the things that I want to accomplish is: Anchor a frame containing linked content from InCopy.

      So far, I’m finding that it’s not possible. You can only Anchor the frame once you’ve given up and choose “Unlink Content”. Then, once it’s unlinked, you can Anchor it. But why? {said with quivering, sad voice} :)

      If Images can be linked and anchored, I wonder why Adobe has decided that it’s not a good idea with linked text – perhaps particularly from InCopy.

      I want the content linked … but, I also want the frame – at least initially – to be anchored to the body text of the document until the layout operator (humanoid) gets to that point in the document, chooses just where it’s going to be placed, and THEN it can be unanchored – but now at this point, it’s important that it remain ‘linked’.

      I’m thinking of some outside-the-box concepts, such as:

      a) initially, anchor a ‘placeholder’ frame with unlinked content … and then once the frame has been placed the frame can be unanchored and the actual linked content can replace what’s in the frame.

      or,

      b) see if I can FOOL InDesign by coding an Anchored InCopy linked content frame in an IDML file . . . and then open the IDML file and see if I’ve successfully snuck-in this feature before ID tells me it’s not possible. :) Actually … this is my next step that I’m going to try, since, IDML is how I intend on building/coding this file in the first place.

      Anyhow … curious to know if anyone has come across this and if so what sort of ‘work-around’ you’ve found.

      Thanks everyone.

      Yours,

      Allan Shearer

    • #71839
      Allan Shearer
      Participant

      Update …

      So, I’ve learned something about this … but I think I might be venturing into dangerous waters:

      Scenario A
      1. Draw a text frame
      2. Place an .icml file into this frame (note that the .icml file appears in both the Links panel and the Assignments panel, and the “Available” icon appears on the top-left corner of the frame – all is normal)
      3. Try to Anchor this frame … you cannot

      OK. But …

      Scenario B
      1. Draw a text frame
      2. Anchor it to the body text in your document
      3. Place an .icml file into the anchored frame (note that something odd happens . . . the file name appears in the Links panel, but NOTHING appears in the Assignments panel even though the “Available” icon now appears on the top-left corner of the frame)

      Hmmm …

      In Scenario B, when you Place the InCopy file (.icml) into the already-anchored frame, it WILL appear in the Links panel (that’s perfectly fine by me – that’s all I wanted) … however … it will NOT appear in the Assignments panel, even though the frame will now display the “Available” icon indicating that this frame contains Linked Content from InCopy. But, things get a little more strange.

      You can edit this file no problem in InDesign without having to Check it out … however, you’re on a one-way street at this point, because, whatever changes you do to the file inside InDesign, won’t make it into the source/external icml file. But … InDesign still considers the source file as ‘linked’ … cuz, if you then modify the icml file OUTSIDE of InDesign (e.g., edit the icml in InCopy) then InDesign will complain that the file has been modified and asks you if you want to Update it – and if you Update (accepting the changes) then you’ll lose any changes done inside InDesign. OK … big deal … not surprising, since it seems to be on a one-way link at this point. But things get even more interesting.

      Still following Scenario B above … try the following steps:

      1. Select the anchored frame containing the Placed icml file (noting the Links panel and Assignments panel – one shows the file name, the other does not)
      2. Export this frame’s content as a ‘new’ icml file . . . and now, look at the Links panel and Assignments panel.
      3. Not only are the Links panel and Assignments panel now showing TWO different file names, but … take note that your Body text (to which you had Anchored this frame): any of frames containing the Body text now have the “Available” icon in the upper-left corner of the frames. {gulp!}

      Now … things get a little dicey … if you’ve followed the above 3 steps, you’ll now notice that your Body text (again, the text to which you anchored the frame) has now become part-in-parcel with the icml file. Huh? Yes, you read that right. You cannot edit your Body text without first Checking it out. But what’s more … the frame that you had anchored now seems to have TWO different filenames attached to it, both the original name – visible in the Links panel, and now the NEW one that you Exported in step 2 above, and this name appears in the Assignments panel.

      Now … this may be perfectly explainable, but at the moment, my brain cannot process it. I can only try to explain that: when you Exported the icml file just now, since it was Anchored to the Body Text, then what you ACTUALLY Exported was the entire threading-of text, inclusive of the Body and any Anchored text threads.

      OK … like I said, I think I MAY have broken some unwritten rule here. I suspect it wouldn’t be wise to use this document ‘as is’, since it’s behaving a bit strange.

      OR … perhaps I just don’t understand the difference between the Links panel and the Assignments panel – perhaps I should go through Chad’s video more thoroughly on Lynda.com.

      So, that’s what I’ve found so far. It seems you CAN anchor an InCopy icml file in InDesign, but … things get strange when you do. I had a feeling this might happen.

      Keen to hear any of your experience with this, should you care to try out the above.

      Thanks

      Allan

    • #71842
      Chad Chelius
      Participant

      Hi Allan,

      I have to say that it seems you’ve discovered a considerable hole in the InCopy workflow! I spent a little bit of time working through the various scenarios that you described above thinking I could trick it somehow, but sure enough I couldn’t make it happen. I even used the place and link command to isolate the problem to InDesign. When you create a “child” story, I noticed that the frame has the square in the upper-right corner that lets you anchor it (this isn’t available with an InCopy story), and as soon as I anchor that story, the link for that story in the links panel disappears. So it appears to me, that there is an inherent problem with anchoring linked frames in general and it appears to not be specific to InCopy.

    • #71847
      Allan Shearer
      Participant

      Hi Chad

      Cool! Glad it’s not just me surprised to see this. :)

      I drove the Ventura programmers bonkers at Corel when I would find obscure bugs (well … let’s not call it a bug yet … “undocumented feature”). But in the end, it made for a solid program.

      I’ll bang on it some more to see what else it might do. :)

      Cheers mate

      Yours,

      Allan

    • #71855

      I agree w/Chad that you’ve stumbled into a bug and are trying to trick the bug into working for you. ;-D Or maybe not a bug, just an area of InDesign that the programmers ran out of time/resources to deal with long ago. Anchored text frames lose a significant part of their identity when they’re anchored, for example, you can’t thread text into/out of them either.

      I would not bother trying to force it to work because I’m afraid it would make the document/story a little “fragile” .. prone to corruption. Or at least user errors.

      So you’re trying to create a workflow where:
      1. The InDesign user pours copy into a story and into some additional stories
      2. The InDesign user exports all those stories to InCopy format
      3. (for some reason I don’t understand) The InDesign user anchors some of those add’l stories into the main story (note it’d have to be the ID user who does this, IC users can’t anchor anything) without losing the unique links to the ICML files of neither the parent story nor its anchored stories.
      4. The IC user opens the layout and checks out and edits all the stories included the anchored ones
      5. The ID user updates the layout and then decides to unanchor stories and place them elsewhere, but maintaining their unique link.

      Is that it?

      If so i’m curious why the ID user needs to anchor the stories. Why not leave them on the side of the page or in the pasteboard even.

      AM

    • #71860
      Allan Shearer
      Participant

      Thanks for your reply, Anne-Marie

      At this point, I’m really just brainstorming ideas on how to recreate this rather complex Ventura project into InDesign. The methods are wide-open at this point – totally open to new ideas.

      Thus, when I look at your questions re: the workflow I’m looking to create, some of my answers will be “not necessarily” :)

      >> So you’re trying to create a workflow where:
      >> 1. The InDesign user pours copy into a story and into some additional stories

      Yes. The primary story runs through some 30-120 pages, depending on the length of each chapter. There are 19 chapters, not including the Front and Back matter.

      The ‘additional’ stories are Tables and Case Studies – most of which are in single-frames, but some span multiple frames (across pages).

      >> 2. The InDesign user exports all those stories to InCopy format

      Not necessarily. :) Actually, the primary stories for each of the 19 chapters will not need to export to InCopy – well, not unless we change the overall production model drastically. The primary stories are generated from a database – thus, it’s the ‘keeper’ of the source text.

      But, the Tables and Case Studies are not retained inside the database. Thus, I was looking at InCopy as a way to maintain these numerous little text files that need to be added here and there throughout each chapter.

      At first, I thought of using ‘snippets’. They work just great! But, they don’t appear in the Links panel when you Place them. Although … having said that … I just viewed a Lynda.com video (one of David’s earlier ones, I think) whereby I’ve learned How To force these snippets to Place as a Link (externally referenced). So … perhaps ‘snippets’ are still a good idea.

      But the anchoring of linked snippets (whether actual ID ‘snippets’, or InCopy files) is my current ‘gotcha’.

      >> 3. (for some reason I don’t understand) The InDesign user anchors some of those add’l stories into the main story (note it’d have to be
      >> the ID user who does this, IC users can’t anchor anything) without losing the unique links to the ICML files of neither the parent story
      >> nor its anchored stories.

      Yes. But really … this anchoring is only ‘temporary’. It’s only as a assistance to the user so that he/she can see WHERE to place these. But once placed and each page set in a linear front-to-back order, then each of these Tables, Case Studies can be unanchored (although, remaining anchored isn’t wrong either).

      As you can see, the anchoring is really only just a ‘helpful’ assistance, rather than a critical feature.

      I envisage being able to generate a INDD (perhaps from an IDML) file with 90% of all of the work ‘done’. Having ‘placeholders’ for each anchored Table and Case Study, which the user will then nudge into the best spot.

      But it could also be that I’m thinking ‘too much’ about How this is currently done using Ventura Publisher. Perhaps with more brainstorming I might find an even better solution, thanks to all the cool features in ID.

      >> 4. The IC user opens the layout and checks out and edits all the stories included the anchored ones

      Editing of the Tables and Case Studies DOES sometimes need to happen. But whether we actually need an InCopy workflow or not remains to be seen. Perhaps just a one-way linked solution will do … and when all edits are done, the user can simply re-Export out the Tables and Case Studies with the latest/greatest revisions intact; ready until the next edition (published annually).

      >> 5. The ID user updates the layout and then decides to unanchor stories and place them elsewhere, but maintaining their unique link.

      Yes. Unanchoring is perfectly acceptable (at least, currently – mirroring the Ventura workflow method). And similarly, currently, the Tables and Case Studies do not HAVE to have a unique link to the external files once the book is done and dusted. At that stage, the ‘snippets’ can all be re-Exported in preparation for the next year. But … this too may change if my brainstorming comes up with a way-cool workflow unique to InDesign.

      Whatever the case … I’ll be looking for a solution that we allow the current database-driven main body text to be laid-out intermixed with ‘snippet’ text files. I’m really looking forward to pushing InDesign to the limits to see just WHAT-ALL of its native features I can use to achieve the best and most-efficient workflow.

      I’m already finding MANY features in ID that will greatly benefit this particular book production process. Sure, yes, there are SOME things that ID doesn’t do that Ventura does SO easily (Frame Tags, Column Rules (ruling lines inside gutters), etc.) but, so far, the PROS far out weigh the CONS in InDesign’s favour.

      I’m REALLY enjoying using GREP and Nested Styles. I’ve just finished a Ventura to InDesign conversion of a database-driven, graphic intensive book for a publisher in Australia … and GREP played a HUGE (HUGE!) part of that process. I’m particularly fond of the “Positive LookBehind” and “Positive LookAhead” GREP commands.

      >> If so i’m curious why the ID user needs to anchor the stories. Why not leave them on the side of the page or in the pasteboard even.

      Actually … I’m aiming (currently) to anchor these INTO the pasteboard area (using Spine Aware – so they jump from a Left-hand to Right-hand pasteboard as they bounce through the document during layout editing), where the user will easily see them and know right-away ‘where’ they need to go.

      Thanks for all your questions, Anne-Marie. Sorry, I tend to be verbose. :) If any here are old Ventura users … you’ll be used to my rather extensive messages from the old forums. :) (sad to say, Corel finally closed-down the old Ventura newsgroup … after 10+ years of no updates to Ventura 10, I guess the NG being shut-down might just be their way of saying, “So long and thanks for all the fish”. ;)

      Yours,

      Allan

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